tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3770861767173688889.post819513764718104501..comments2023-04-26T00:55:44.495-07:00Comments on Fantastic Worlds: Historical Cycles and the Anachronism Argument as Applicable to Space OperaJordan179http://www.blogger.com/profile/04175992431854812417noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3770861767173688889.post-46411792637668251702011-01-28T22:58:33.013-08:002011-01-28T22:58:33.013-08:00Thinking more deeply on this, Praeloquor, the diff...Thinking more deeply on this, Praeloquor, the differences between the cyclic natures of various species, including human-descended ones, could be a major factor in the destinies of their civilizations. This is basically the sitaution in Fredric Brown's "Letter to a Phoenix" (1949) in which humanity is the <i>only</i> strongly-cyclic race -- and is consequently immortal, for humanity keeps burning its civilizations down, with new ones rising form the ashes, while other species eventually hit a point of decline from which they never recover.<br /><br />This is perhaps an underexplored topic in SF, especially lately!Jordan179https://www.blogger.com/profile/04175992431854812417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3770861767173688889.post-48411262096077596022011-01-28T14:33:50.696-08:002011-01-28T14:33:50.696-08:00Mmm, I think that these technologies would change ...Mmm, I think that these technologies would <i>change the timing</i> of the cycles, and of course if humans settle distant worlds that are only in loose contact with other worlds, these worlds may fall out of synchonization with each other (you can see this in Earthly history -- the Chinese and Greco-Roman cycles don't match). I suspect that the cycles in general rest upon sociological principles that may be common to all sapience, or at least all <i>human</i>-derived sapience. But I could be wrong, obviously.Jordan179https://www.blogger.com/profile/04175992431854812417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3770861767173688889.post-48726395045631397162011-01-28T13:01:01.648-08:002011-01-28T13:01:01.648-08:00I would think that some of the technologies you me...I would think that some of the technologies you mention would break this cycle, as it is based on human generations and limitations. The ability to be a spaceship or live solely amidst the interwebs would break this cycle I think - as would more garden varieties of immortality. If you write a future about beings that are not really human, laws that describe human societies would not really hold I think.praeloquorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15327359031234214294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3770861767173688889.post-22325700830686355922011-01-28T08:04:42.658-08:002011-01-28T08:04:42.658-08:00H. Beam Piper is indeed a very good example of thi...H. Beam Piper is indeed a very good example of this. He provided the framework and explicitly declared the cyclic nature of his whole future history in "The Edge of the Knife." Another good example is Poul Anderson's Polesotechnic League and Terran Empire future history, which depicts a civilization which emerges from the ruins of the West, whose course strongly echoes Classical Greece and the Roman Empire.<br /><br />I did not know about St. Augustine and Aristotle anticipating the modern understanding of technological progress. St. Augustine, of course, was helping to form the Christian concept of a (literally) progressive history, but I am truly surprised that someone as far back as Aristotle (4th century BCE) grasped the idea not merely of technological progress <i>but also how it induces SOCIAL change</i> (which is the more subtle concept).<br /><br />In doing so, of course, he was anticipating modern science fiction. Quite an honorable lineage for the genre!Jordan179https://www.blogger.com/profile/04175992431854812417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3770861767173688889.post-56053278855502374982011-01-27T18:28:34.555-08:002011-01-27T18:28:34.555-08:00Actually, I believe that St. Augustine pointed out...Actually, I believe that St. Augustine pointed out technology changes as evidence that time was not cyclical but linear.<br /><br />And prior to him, Aristotle certainly pointed out the changes that bronze to iron made. (In the Heroic Age, the heroes were few because they all needed bronze. Iron was more plentiful and led to the masses of citiznes being fighters.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3770861767173688889.post-31838680010233951162011-01-27T15:11:47.704-08:002011-01-27T15:11:47.704-08:00I would have thought H. Beam Piper was a must exam...I would have thought H. Beam Piper was a must example for such a discussion :)Lorenzohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00305933404442191098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3770861767173688889.post-21152753670658049022011-01-27T12:38:52.039-08:002011-01-27T12:38:52.039-08:00Yah, and note that managing the "inflection p...Yah, and note that managing the "inflection points" (and then deciding which competing version of civilization would succeed the Galactic Empire) is ultimately what the <i>Foundation</i> series was about. The Toynbeean model lends itself to drama on the grand scale.Jordan179https://www.blogger.com/profile/04175992431854812417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3770861767173688889.post-17756738118241536042011-01-27T11:25:22.516-08:002011-01-27T11:25:22.516-08:00Excellent.
I'd add that Spengler thought the ...Excellent.<br /><br />I'd add that Spengler thought the cycles were inevitable while Toynbee that you had 'inflection points' between stages of the cycles and with good decisions and savvy elites you could avoid moving on to the next stage until the next inflection point. But that doesn't really matter for your point, which is that there are respectable cyclical theories of history that justify space opera assumptions.<br /><br />IAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com